Today we have the extreme pleasure and honor of welcoming a truly iconic guest, an artist, pioneer, trendsetter, and founder. Justin's voice has encouraged consciousness, community building, and creative rebellion for myself and for so many others. His music, his videos, ventures, presence has asked me to consider, what if the real innovation isn't what we build but in how we live? What if the ultimate product is ourselves?
Thank you so much for being here. Wow, that was a great intro. I need you to like write if I ever win an award for something, that's what I want. What if the true product is how we live our lives or how we innovate ourselves? That was great. I love it. I butchered it, but it was great. Thank you. No, of course. You have set the trends and the tone of how I live my life in so many San Franciscans and founders all across the board.
I wanted to ask you a little bit about where your creative genius and inspiration comes from. I think I find inspiration in, so I was thinking about like, actually, I'll start by saying like, for a long time, I didn't think of myself as a creative person. Actually, you know, I was building startups, I was kind of the, you know, programmer, I was a business guy, I guess, eventually later. And I remember there's a moment, like a very specific moment, I'd launched like Justin TV, which is a company that terminated Twitch.
And there was a moment like four years in, I think it was 2009, where I went to a party, like a tech party in San Francisco, where those are the startup, startup founders, and I was having a conversation with a friend of mine, Trip Adler, the founder of Scribd. And Trip, I was saying, you know, I was telling him, I was like, I don't think of myself as a creative person. I don't know why we were talking about that. But I just remember saying that statement.
And he was like, Justin, you're one of the most creative people I know, you're always starting companies. And, you know, you're like, thinking of these like crazy entrepreneurial ideas. And it really reframed how I thought about myself in that moment. I was like, Oh, actually am pretty creative. And so now I think of myself as a creative person. And I think I'm really creative in my entrepreneurship, in, you know, thinking of solutions to problems in the world.
And a lot of my own ideas around that just comes from my own experience. I remember taking an entrepreneurship, it wasn't like a class, I guess it was like a club at Yale, when I was an undergrad over 20 years ago. And the guy who was teaching it was the founder of this company called Honest Tees. I don't know if it's still around, but it was like a tea brand back like 20 years ago. And he was saying that like, as an entrepreneur, you just draw ideas for companies from your own experience.
Yeah. So I think I've always done that where I've pursued my own excitement, curiosity about the world and passions about the world to like try to create products or businesses that are like, allow me to explore that creativity or excitement or curiosity. And then also solves my own personal need or need that I perceive in the world. Absolutely. I think of you're the prime example of a founder being an artist. I think that a lot of founders, what they do, what they create is an art form.
And I think that beyond what you did with Twitch, it is even more evident in all your other endeavors, how much of an artist you are not just a creative. So thank you for your contribution in all those ways. Thanks for saying that. Yeah, I feel like entrepreneurship is very creative because you're kind of a cross functional or multi-disciplinary kind of way of doing things about, you know, in technology, it's like the combination of tech plus how that can, the user experiences that you could build a new proxy or build affect people's lives.
And then how do you market it and communicate it? And then how do you fund it? How do you recruit people to it? You know, so there's like a little bit of economics and some psychology and marketing and technology, engineering, product, you know, combining all those things to try to create something new in the world. Hmm. Do you feel that you tap into different types of inspiration depending on what you're creating? For example, you know, you're talking about solving a lot of your problems or tapping into solutions that would make your life better through what you're creating, for example, with
with maybe Titanic Sund, it's the need for community and bringing people together in a celebratory with Woody's. It's the trauma and the pain of, you know, bad things of what alcohol alcohol can do to people. I'm just curious to see the inspiration that you tap into maybe is different for the different art forms and things you create. Yeah, I don't I mean, I don't really think about it that like, presumptuous and that I'm like, you know, it's not like I'm thinking like, Oh, I'm going to create some art every day, you know, like so we have this brand Woody's, which is our kindly brought here.
It's a non-alcoholic wine. I don't drink anymore. I used to drink love drinking, like way too much. And so it wasn't good for me. And I stopped. But you know, I was just trying to solve my own problem. Like, why isn't there, you know, four year for four or five years ago, when I started thinking about it, there was no good non-alcoholic beverages. And they're, I think, brewing and just come out. There's no good non-alcoholic wine or champagne.
I really love champagne when I was still drinking. And I was just like, why are these products so bad? There were existing products, but they were super sweet. And so just started thinking, like, why doesn't someone make a good version of this? Like, it does exist. There are non-alcoholic wines, but there's no good version of it. And so my creative process, I guess, is just I start thinking about it. Like, how could this product exist?
Or is there a market for this product? Do people want it? And I just generally start talking about the idea with people. And I ended up meeting someone who was of my co-founder Woody, who was a wine maker. And he was also thinking, you know, he's drinking less, actually. And he was like, Oh, that is an interesting idea. And he was like, I could make that product. And so we just started brainstorming on it and kind of making packaging and iterating on product.
And then, you know, four years later, it's like a company that has we're selling this product nationally now. It's amazing. I had a chance to see so much of this all across different stores, like FireEye and so delicious, by the way. But I recognize the brand all over, you know, the US and San Francisco. I'm a non-drinker myself. So I gravitate to these great selections. But it is so delicious. And you don't think it it doesn't take any of the experience of of celebrating or getting to build community with people, which is yeah, yeah, something to do.
I mean, you don't get fucked up. So it's like if it's you're looking for the inhibition, you know, reducer of alcohol that that part that isn't part of it, you've got to figure out your own way to make your way to the dance floor. But you know, I think it's a great product. I like it. Yeah, I know. It tastes absolutely delicious. I can't wait to try the next one. Yeah. After this is over. Can you tell me a little bit about the the journey of, you know, you were talking about drinking alcohol and how that was in a healthy moment for you?
Yeah. So I was someone who was always a shy extrovert. People are sometimes surprised to learn that. But when I was a kid, I was cripplingly shy. But I always wanted to be around people as a naturally and I don't think I was very good at, you know, making friends broadly, like I had some friends, but I was like, I couldn't make friends very broadly. And I wasn't good at like being in, you know, these social situations with a lot of people or parties or whatever.
And so when I discovered alcohol, which is in high school, I guess, I was like, Oh, this is crazy. I can, it was kind of like going from Clark Kent to Superman, you know, I was like, when I'm drinking, I'm like able to talk to people. I'm like the life of the party. I can like, kind of be the person that I always wanted to be. Now that was for like, an hour and then I'd like have too many drinks and get like, be totally sideways passed out on like this couch in the living room of this party or whatever.
But for a limited window, I felt like amazing. And so that like created this, I would say like habituation to like relying on drinking. And I love, I love drinking, I probably still would if I went back to it, but you know, kind of got like, it was became a crutch of like, Oh, I need this for social situations. And then what I realized is like, eventually it became a crutch around other things. Like whenever, whenever I was having a difficult experience in life, I would immediately reach for alcohol as a way to let dissociate from my difficult present moment experience.
You know, if I was feeling guilty or anxious about my company, not working, or I was feeling stressed out or whatever it'd be like immediately, like, I need a drink. So you know, I have this dependency for a long time, it was probably pretty much a functional alcoholic of much of my early adult life. And then eventually it just wasn't, you know, I realized like, I've done it every kind of way. You know, like I've tried to like, drink in moderation, I've tried to only drink beer, I've tried to only drink on days and then why and like, it was like never, it never was good for me.
And so eventually I was like, I need to stop doing this. So like, six years ago, I quit. Yeah, about six years ago, I quit cold turkey. And I was like, I'm gonna never have a drink again, which is crazy, because my own identity, I thought that was like so foreign to me, you know? But I am pretty good at doing stuff when I commit my mind to it. And so yeah, that's, that's now I'm alcohol free and feel pretty good. It's really amazing.
Like, there's a lot of benefits to it, actually, that I didn't realize, like, I used to get sick all the time. Like every six weeks or something, I'd get like a cold or flu or something. And I thought, like, I was somebody with a shitty immune system. But now I never get sick. Yeah. Also, like, you know, you're so much more productive when you have all these hours in the day back. Yeah, it's, it's pretty amazing. That mental clarity that you have after alcohol without alcohol, and for me, it was, I stopped about five years ago, the amount of I realized like stomach issues, it was also happening.
And I think that was also like a blessing in disguise. Because if it wasn't for the stomach issues, I think there would have been I have a bit of an addictive personality. And I think that shouldn't it become like a crutch for something emotional or something, my body said, you know, we can't handle it. But was there a moment for you of, let's say, you know, a rock bottom moment or moment of realization that you said, like, I this is the last time, you know, I was
actually quit when I wasn't at like my worst amount of drinking, like, there were definitely moments where I was like, Oh, I like him. Just like not doing super good with this. But actually, it was more of like a stable equilibrium. When I left, I was like, quit drinking. I was like, probably drinking, you know, a couple drinks a day, five times a week, which I it sounds like a lot now. But like, that was like, definitely not the like, most volume of alcohol is consuming.
So it's more like just I've done it every single kind of way, you know, like I've tried all these different ways to drink it and just couldn't find something that worked for me that wasn't zero. Right. Did you replace when you decided, okay, cold turkey, which is also insane? Did you? Did you feel like, and did you learn anything about yourself in that process of you were talking about using, you know, it as a crutch for social situations or for stress relief release?
Yeah, I think I learned that I'm a strong person and I don't need to disagree, intermediate my present moment experience. You know, I thought, like, how could I possibly do these things I like to do or get through these situations I find hard without alcohol? That was like a very foreign because I've been drinking pretty heavily since I was like, probably 15 or 16 years old, and I was 35 or 36 when I quit drinking. So,
you know, I was like, it was crazy to me this idea of like, I could stop drinking.
But I realized like, Oh, I like I'm a very strong person, I can deal with like difficult emotional experiences and not dissociate from them, I can just exist with them. What helped one thing that helped me was just I remember I had a therapist years ago, this is before I saw who was having a lot of anxiety because I had this company was failing, and I felt really responsible. And then I started this crippling guilt that every morning I would wake up and I wouldn't want to get out of bed and work on this company because I was like, felt so guilty about how I was failing.
And I promised all these employees and investors that it was going to be successful. So I was like,
you know, I went and saw a therapist out of my desire to be able to be productive actually wasn't, you know, really to help me outside of like, I need to get back to work. So I remember she her asking, I was telling her about this guilt and she was like, What is what is guilt feel like? I was like, What are you talking about? What does it feel like? What do you mean? It feels like guilt. She was like, No, what's the feeling in the body?
And I kind of told her I was like, it feels like, you know, this like tension in my chest and like a pain in my stomach and like a voice in my head. It's like, you suck. Or whatever, you know, like this combination of feelings, sensory experiences, body, it was like, Oh, you know, when you feel that you should just notice it and sit with that experience and like notice what it feels like. That's, you know, form of meditation.
And so I remember thinking, you know, kind of using that technique, like, so that did it in that case, I was like doing it when I was feeling guilty about the start. But I was like, Oh, after being with my experience for a couple moments, it dissipates, right? So I'm not that it's kind of when you try to stuff it down, that it just like is present and comes back up. But when you're just like present with your experience, your body, you know, usually go away over time.
And so as your body like process your emotions. So I, you know, when I after I quit drinking, I kind of went back to that. And I was like, Oh, I can just be with my difficult experiences that normally I would have like, I would try to shut down by drinking. And I would just feel angry or sadness or anger or sadness or guilt or whatever, and anxiety and just be with it. And then it'll eventually go away. Right. And so I've learned from that, that, you know, I can, I can process my emotions without alcohol, you know, and the same is true of like going out and wanting to, you know, be sociable, right?
I thought I remember thinking, like, how could anyone ever dance? Have the confidence to dance without being wasted? Like, that's crazy. You know, there was like, that's what was my thinking. And then now I just realized like, Oh, I can just be myself and like be sociable and people like me for me. I don't need to like, I don't need to clutch.
I think that's such an empowering thing that you're talking about of being present in those uncomfortable moments. And really leaning into those, you know, guilt or pain or sadness or heartbreak or whatever those things are, because if you don't deal with them, then then they're going to come back and it's going to snowball. And so it's really such a gift that you gave yourself. Yeah, for sure. It's one of the better things I've done for myself.
And thank you for creating this brand. I mean, it's, it's, I think, helping so many people who are struggling with alcohol and also giving people a really pleasant, healthy experience. So really I think it's a really good thing to be on the wellness front too. Thanks. And we'd love to talk to you a little bit about when you were in those moments when let's say you thought, okay, I need to be like, kind of out of my body to enjoy this party or to, or to put myself in these social situations or whatever it may be, get through this emotional thing.
Did you find yourself saying no a lot more after you stop drinking? Hmm. I don't know. I mean, for me, it wasn't like I was doing things I didn't want to do
because I was drinking. I think it was more like I was, it was helping me do things I wanted to do, or I thought it was helping me do things I want to do. I like doing a lot of things. Actually, I'm a person who's probably more of like a yes, I am person, you know, where I'm like, excited to do things. I mean, I'm here, right? We just met. So I'm here doing your podcast. I just like mostly say yes to things. So it wasn't so much that like, I felt I think for other people, they probably feel like they're, you know, kind of like getting through doing things that they don't want to be doing because of with medicating themselves, right?
I'm probably more of a person who was like, wanted to do those things, but maybe was shy about it or uncomfortable in the past and then like, don't need to medicate myself. I feel the same way in a lot of regards of being a shy extrovert of needing
so much additional, I think, confidence and support within myself to put myself out there and be around lots of people. And for me, it was just some confidence and repetition and reps. For you, what was it growing up that really got you out of your shell where perhaps you were that shy kid that really wanted to be a part of what was going on? Was it gradually forcing yourself to you know, be the center of attention or to, you know, make the first move when you're making friends?
Or how did you get out of your shell? Well, I think when I was younger, I mean, I think parents try to push me and my mom, especially to like, go make friends, which is probably really helpful. So thanks, mom. And I think eventually, like when I was in high school, I was like trying to actively do things to, I don't know, I was always into like new creative ideas or whatever. I was like, involving the people around me and like my ideas.
So maybe that was part of it. And I think really, it was probably as an adult really of like, as a young adult, like starting a company, you know, you have to go and talk to people about it and pitch it. And like, I think I put myself in lots of situations that I probably wouldn't have normally been comfortable in because I just had this company and like, that was part of the job, you know, so to me, it was like, like public speaking is probably a good example where like, I was really cripplingly shy about public speaking.
And now I love it. And I think the difference was just exposure therapy from starting a company, you have to talk about your company a lot, you know, and be the face of it. Yeah, so not necessarily sell, but yeah, you have to sell. You got to share it. You have to get to be the evangelist.
And each time it gets a little bit easier. Yeah, exactly. I'm a big exposure therapy or like habit person, like if you want to be some type of person, you need to like just do it, like you're already there, right? So if you want to be a social, you know, an extra somebody who's like a public speaker, you know, you just got to sign up for a bunch of public speaking, and then just, you have to do it. And it's going to be painful, maybe, but you just do it over and over.
And eventually, you're like comfortable. Or I, I don't know if you want to be somebody who exercises, you know, you need to just start exercising. And it's not so much about, I think it's all about inputs, not outputs. So you can't like have a goal like, Oh, I'm gonna run a marathon or something like that. I don't think it's a good goal. I think it's like the good, good, good goal to have is like, I'm gonna run three times a week for any amount of time, right?
And just like you have to build a habit every, every day or every week or whatever, of doing that thing. And then eventually, you're going to be that person. I love how you talk about your mom and your parents pushing you out of your comfort zone when you were younger. I know you've talked about how your mom was an entrepreneur. Do you think that, you know, growing up in Washington, your mom being an entrepreneur, you know, close proximity to things happening, whether it's, you know, Amazon or Microsoft, made you lean in a little bit more and think I could be a founder one day?
Yeah, I think there was some exposure to technology. And I took this programming class at a community college when I was in high school. And we'd like to meet some software. And there was one of the mentors, the guy who taught this class was a, he was like, entrepreneur who created a company and sold it to Microsoft. So there's some exposure there. My mom was a, she was, she learned to be, you know, she was a programmer when, you know, when we were younger, in the early days, like, punch cards and stuff, you know.
So, yeah, I think there was like some exposure there. Would you say you also had more propensity for risk? I think that's genetic. So I do think I have like more propensity for risk than normal people. I didn't really understand that, I think until more recently, like, but I just have like a skewed, you know, a skewed view on risk. Like, I think I'm, and it's also, like, I think people train the behaviors, you know, you train behaviors you're exposed to that over time.
So like, I've been an entrepreneur, I've been like, used to like, risk. And then that's like, you know, if I had worked at a big company or something, or like something more stable, and maybe I would have like, reduced my like, you know, propensity risk, right? But now I'm like, I think I have like an extremely skewed view on risk, and what risk is worth taking, because I just like, train that muscle. And then I think, genetically, I, my nature is like, you know, more risk seeking, like, I just noticed it, not just in like entrepreneurship, but in like, you know, I rode a motorcycle for a long time, I'll like, fly in a small plane or like go hella skiing or something.
And I don't think about, I don't usually think things aren't gonna work out for me. I usually think things are gonna work out for me, which is, you know, really great. But I've also like, I don't know, I've gotten a bicycle accident where I broke my elbows, you know, I broke my hand in a log splitter last year, like I, so like, doesn't, doesn't necessarily always work out, you know, but it's mostly worked out. Yeah, I don't know.
Yeah, that's so interesting, because I think I have very, very low propensity for risk. And seeing the world kind of as the way I look at it is, you know, every step I take, I think there's like a mouse trap, and I'm the mouse. And so it's always like, Oh, where's the next thing that's gonna crush me? And then, you know, changing the mindset to I'm not a mouse, but maybe an elephant. Yeah. There still might be some some traps along the way.
But for me, it was largely, you know, I grew up in Japan, where it was, you know, you have to follow the norm, the expectation, the tradition, if you deviate, you know, any way, like your uniform is a little too long, or you said something the wrong way, you walked the wrong way in class, it would automatically be like a slap on your wrist. And so it wasn't until moving to San Francisco, that I was like, this is fantastic.
Yeah, people here are willing to take huge risks and be adventurous. And that mindset shift didn't happen until you know, being exposed in the same vicinity with people like you. Great. Well, it's a different way to live. Yeah. And do you think that, you know, one of my favorite YouTube videos, you talked about how essentially, you don't put any limits on yourself. And you think that you could do anything, even if you know nothing about something.
Yeah. And that that's sort of a superpower is this lack of limitations that you have on yourself. Yeah, I don't have very many limiting beliefs anymore. Yeah, I think I can, I really do feel like I can do anything or like figured out with the right people around me, you know, and so I've been willing to start companies in many different industries that I don't know anything about. And, you know, sometimes it's worked out, hasn't worked out, but I have this view, like, oh, I can probably figure it out.
Was that always since you were young, and it's just a muscle that's you continuously feel more and more like anything is possible for you or? Yeah, I think that's, I think that's right. I think it probably was from when I was young. There's like a healthy bit of ego in there. Yeah. Do you think that that can be taught to people? Yeah, well, I definitely think like your situation when you are younger, it really informs how you are as an adult generally.
So if people are, you know, just like you said about Japanese culture, and like how the culture in Japan is more about conformism and like, creating like a harm being a harmonious part of society versus necessarily like blazing your own trail and like, you know, deciding your own path and taking risks to get there. So I think like if you, you know, people are normalized to the environment that they're in, right? So I think in San Francisco, like one of the reasons to be here is because there are people taking risks on entrepreneurship and like creating things are new.
One of my friends said once he was like,
the, you know, on the East Coast in America, the older an idea is, the better it is. And on the East Coast, the new, the younger an idea is, the better it is. I think I thought that was like a great, you know, exemplification of like, the different philosophies. And I think here, I do think there's this kind of excitement about new things without thinking much about, you know, there's not like a question like if here, there's technology, like if we could build technology, we should probably do it.
There's not really the question of like, oh, is this going to create some really bad downstream effects or whatever? Like that's, you know, we'll figure it out later. I think generally people are like excited to like do new things, you know? And I love that, that sort of optimism of you can believe and you can grow into believing anything is possible and embody that fully. And the environment is a big part of that. Yeah, for sure.
They say you're like the average of your five closest friends, you know, and I think if you want to be an innovator or you want to be risk seeking, then you know, surround yourself with innovators and risk seekers. That's good. And then in terms of the influence your mom had on you, what do you think are the way or what did you learn from her?
Well, my mom was an entrepreneur. So I think there was, you know, kind of an example to me. And but my mom is like somebody I'm very similar to my mom, actually. Yeah, it's like, I probably wouldn't have wanted to admit that 10 years ago, but now I'm comfortable with it. And she's somebody who's great with people, like a real people person and very curious about people. And I think I've kind of, you know, adopted some of those things that I saw her behaviors.
And also, I think I've personality wise, I'm like pretty similar to her. And she's, she's really great at drawing people in to like, like, including them and getting momentum with people to like, do something, you know, and so I think that that's probably my primary skills and entrepreneurs like to tell people a vision for how the future could be and their place in it and get them excited about coming along on that journey.
Yeah, so my mom, she was a huge influence on me, and I'll, I'll always be grateful. It's really amazing what you talked about, almost in a sense, like her galvanizing people and bringing people together in that way. And I think that's exactly your role. I mean, even seeing you from a distance, I really see you as the glue that holds all these different communities together, whether it be through a Titanic Sun, or sort of the optimism that you have, that you give an inspiration for founders that are like,
Justin can do it, then I can do it. So it's really, truly amazing. And sort of even watching you from a distance and people being affected by just your existence. Hey, thank you. Appreciate. Yeah, I appreciate the sentiment. I mean, I think a lot of people, I don't think anybody's out there, I did get a message once, like I started a startup because of you, like a talk that I gave at like a their university or something, and they like end up selling that company.
And I got it, they sent me a note actually after that, which is hilarious. But, you know, for the most part, people are doing it themselves. They're like, they have the impetus to come and like, build something great. And, you know, I don't deserve any of the credit. I'm just a guy. What do you think you taught your mom?
I think I taught my mom had like some limiting beliefs has maybe some limit limiting beliefs. She came from Malaysia when she was 17 to America, grew up in with nine brothers and sisters, and like a shack by the side of the road and like a very rural part of Malaysia. And I think she's been amazed to see, you know, that I really don't have that many limiting beliefs about like what I can she had always had believe, you know, kind of some barriers around like, Oh, we're not like, like, I think she thought of herself as like, capped in terms of like, how much success that she could have in America.
Just from like her background and like, you know, coming in as an immigrant, and you know, she worked at restaurant multiple restaurant jobs when she was young to like pay her way through college. And then she you know, it's pretty amazing. She went and became a programmer, you know, she got a she was like at a community college and went to like college and then got a master's program in physics. And then she went and became a programmer at digital equipment Corp, which is that was like the safe thing like when Microsoft was a startup.
And she was getting recruited Microsoft, but that didn't go because like digital was like the how that was like the place that was like safer, like the big company. And you know, she made like a really good career and then eventually start a business to become a mortgage broker and not have real estate agent as a way to spend more time with us as kids like when the race, you know, raises his kids, me and my two brothers.
And so, you know, I think she she did really amazing to go from like abject poverty to like stable middle class lifestyle in America for to raise your kids.
But you know, I think she had like limiting beliefs around she has had in the past limiting beliefs around like what you know, her own success was kept that like I said, and so for my thing to see myself and my brothers do so well, you know, technology has been like, I think, mind blowing and eye opening for her. I love that we can encourage our parents to remove their limiting beliefs. Yeah, I think so. And hopefully with each generation, it gets more and more than anything's possible.
Yeah. What are you trying to pass down to your kids?
I think my my parents had like, you know, my mom, especially had kind of a scarcity mindset coming, which is very understandable coming from a place of scarcity. And I think that was translated to me in a way of like, you know, always wanting more. Like when I sold Twitch, I was like, oh, we, you know, well, I did good, but like my friends started Airbnb or Dropbox or something, I didn't do that good. And so I was like, you know, and people are mind blown to hear that was like, Oh, I wanted more, which comes from a place of scarcity, you know, it's like, not really any I need more, but you know, at that point.
But I so that eventually, like, I think through a lot of working on myself, I like was able to adopt more of an abundance mindset, you know. And I do think I mean, I think that's like a better way to live in the world, you know.
And so I think that there was, you know, just for having my kids start from that place, it was really important to me, having them be kind to themselves and people around them, is really important and really to be a source of their own approval in the world. For myself, I like, you know, I was always looking for the outside world to, you know, when I was a kid, I don't feel like I got the approval from my parents or peers that I needed that I wanted as a young, young kid.
And that's not a criticism of them. I don't, you know, I have like major traumas, a small trauma, but like for you as a growing individual, you know, that's important to you. So important to me. So I would like for my own kids to
really be the source of their own approval, which is, you know, easier said than done, but we'll see what happens. At least I'm thinking about it. Yeah, being conscious of that. Yeah. And the each generation gets better than the next. Hopefully. Hopefully, that's the promise of humanity. I really appreciated one of the things you said about when you stopped drinking was you realized, and it was I think you said it during an ayahuasca ceremony, you realized that a lot of the decisions that you had been making were based on what other people would think and the approval element that you were talking about.
How did you overcome that?
Yeah, so I, you know, I was like a shy extrovert. And I was like, Oh, I want people to like me and want to connect with me. And I felt like, you know, when I was younger, I was like, if I could just, yeah, I almost was like, if I could make, you know, become this successful entrepreneur, successful in the world, then people would like want to, you know, like me and approve of me and connect with me. And so, you know, that was my hypothesis subconsciously from like the first whatever long 20 years, you know, 35 years of life.
And eventually I did become successful. And, you know, it kind of worked in some ways, like, but it didn't really work in that, you know, I felt like, Oh, I don't have enough. It was a scarcity mindset around approval. It's like, Oh, I could just like, I should be more successful. And then like, you know, you can't really fill the holes your childhood with like the present, you know, what you experienced in the present day.
So I eventually, you know, realize this about myself. And then it was really about,
you know, kind of trying to shift my mindset to like be
this more following of like my authentic self and like, what did I want to do and realizing and like building the muscle of realization of like, if I show up as just a good person, that like cares about others is genuinely interesting connecting with other people, like people like me for me, you know, and I, you know, I realized that actually, like, if I people don't, you know, I think sometimes people initially they want to connect with me because like, Oh, I'm a, I can invest in their company, or I'm like a successful entrepreneur.
But a lot of people who I connect with now, like my, my a lot of friends of mine, they're just, they like me because I'm a genuine human being that's authentic that like is interested in them. Cares about them and they can feel that, you know. And so kind of having that experience and reinforcing that muscle made me realize like, Oh, I'm good, like life is, life is good.
That is a good moment to have when you realize you're enough. Yeah, your presence is a gift. You don't need alcohol or to you add value is exactly who you are.
Yeah, really great things to unpack there. You know, all these endeavors that you're a part of, one thing that really stands out is this Titanic's and what you can do with people and community and art, sort of the synthesis of all these things. When you envision Titanic's end and the experience you can give to people, whether at Burning Man or elsewhere, what do you, what do you hope that you can, what do you hope that you can give people?
Let's say they see it, they're on it. What do you want to share with them? Yeah, so you talked about mentioned it a couple of times with like for the audience members that don't know Titanic's end is a Burning Man camp and community. It's a community of artists and engineers and mostly here in the Bay Area, but with people all over the world. And it kind of came together around building this Burning Man art project.
That's a giant 70 foot long iceberg with 200,000 LEDs and giant speakers. It's kind of like a big DJ soundstage that moves around for Burning Man. And I love Burning Man. It's like a big part of my life. I've been going almost every year since 2011. And I, you know, one thing I love about Burning Man is it really calls people to be participants and creators in life, not just, you know, consumers. And so, you know, if you want to build an art project, you just do it, you know.
And so one of the things I wanted to do was after our experiencing it was build this like giant iceberg, our car. And so we kind of came together as a group of friends, maybe there was a core group of 30 people in the beginning that was, you know, 2000, this was four years ago, to build this thing. And we didn't really have any idea that we could do it. You know, but it was a multidisciplinary group of, you know, engineers and artists.
And we just started sketching it out. And then eventually, in this 10 month sprint went from idea on a napkin to actually implementing this and bringing it to Burning Man 2022. It was a really amazing experience, you know, had through like, almost like a concert, you know, a series of concerts, I guess, for like six days. And then we've been bringing it back to the play ever since for the last couple years, a little bit our fourth year.
And so, you know, it's, I guess, one of the things, it's a really important, I mean, it's not that important from as a project, right? It's for fun. We're doing this experience. We also do some, we've done shows outside of Burning Man, but, you know, people enjoy it. It's a, it's a entertainment, right? But it's really important people participate in it are part of the camp in that it's a big part of all of our lives.
You know, we have to just can't tattoo logo. There's 40 people who have this tattoo, you know, people really like it and they care a lot. And after that first,
like burn after the first Burning Man, where we brought it together, we, you know, I kind of wrote down some of the values of the people in Titanic. And we made like a set of values. It's very like, it's kind of like corporate. But, you know, I thought it was important because we had this community of friends and, you know, everyone cared a lot. And so one of those values is create peak experiences. So, you know, we really think about it as like, Hey, we're creating these experiences for other people.
I had so many people who said came to me that and say like, Oh, I had the best night of my life or one of the best nights of my life at this at Titanic's end. And you like really curate this for a special experience, right? Like, I got engaged to my fiance on Titanic's end, or I, just like people have had really amazing experiences. And that's like the outside world of attendees, visitors, people who see it. And then we have this, you know, kind of core community that's grown to maybe a couple hundred people now.
And for those people, it's like a really big part of their lives to feel like they're engaged in the community, building something together. You know, it's really for people who like want to build something and build art. And I think people, in the modern world, they want a mission. Like people want mission, they want community. I think a lot of places that they would get that historically have like, that disappeared.
You know, there aren't that many third place communities anymore. You know, people used to belong to like, members clubs or social, social clubs or churches. But a lot of that has like, kind of fallen off. And so like, you know, you have your maybe family community, you have your work, but there's not that much third place community. And I think Titanic Center, we call it TE, is kind of like that for its members. And you know, really, anyone can join, you just need to like, show up and do a lot of work.
You know, it's a because it takes a lot of work to like build this art, you know, but it's service for the community. And so that's what I'm most excited about, most proud about it. So it's like a really meaningful part of a lot of people's lives. And yeah, it can seem frivolous, like we're making art, you know,
but it's, it's people have fun doing it, and they have fun consuming it. So
that's beautiful. You seem like a very spiritual person. Do you have any relationship? And what do you think about whether there's a religion that you're connected to, or, you know, the mindfulness that you practice or meditation? Yeah, I'm one of the growing, you know, spiritual, not religious people, I guess, I mean, I guess I connect with a lot of things of elements of Buddhism. But for me, I guess it's like really spirituality is feeling your own connectedness to your own conscious experience, and really the exploration of your own consciousness, and all the aspects and go a lot of times were swept along with the rational mind, and like, we kind of identify strongly with like our rational thoughts, but it's like a deeper human experience that's under the kind of like undergirds that and that people are not as tapped into.
So just try to make moments for myself where I am connected to that. Do you think that you find spiritual connection in making art, whether it's music or with a Titanic sign or even winemaking?
Well, you know, I think the way I put it is like, I think there's many different experiences that are like in the broad range of human experiences, and oftentimes in our like job, or like the to do list of life, or like trapped in the rational, you're thinking your thinking mind is like coming up with solutions or problems and trying to check out boxes. And that's one part of the human experience. I think there's another part that a lot of people are connected to that's more of a flow state experience that can be you know, doing things that you get to flow, you know, you can make playing music or, you know, doing something physical like embodied, you know, and so yeah, I guess I feel like I some of the things that I get to experience are through, you know, my own spiritual or like some of the things I've like really tried to create space for myself and are those like flow state experiences.
How are there any rituals that you practice maybe quite regularly that take you back to that present moment and do fully embodied? Yeah, I try to have meditative like have kind of okay meditation practice, I would say it's like goes between like the existing and non existent, you know, at some sometimes probably year by year. But I think the thing that's been really powerful in my life is like to incorporate meditative moments where I'm just like checking in like like, how do I what is my present moment experience at this moment?
You know, like, how do I feel like how to what is happening in my consciousness, right in my awareness. A lot of that is like what's happening in the body and what is you know, what's present in consciousness. And I kind of asked myself that pretty regularly, actually, every day and multiple times a day. And so just kind of checking in with yourself. Yeah, just checking with your experience. Yeah. And I think that's been a powerful tool for me.
Because often does were like swept up in our experience, like we were just in it, and you're not really aware that you are not your experience. You're just the observer. That's for which you're the space in which these things are happening. You're very self aware, I think, not just about life as a whole and big picture, the moments that added up to make you who you are, but also about each day, checking in with yourself.
Yeah, I think I spent so much of my life unconscious, you know, I was like drink big drinker, or I was like, enthralled to do these things to try to get other people like me. That was a very subconscious thing, right? And I think as I've kind of woken up to my own experience, it's been more it. Yeah, I think I like to be conscious and deliberate about like, what is going on for me, you know, and I found a great that's a great source of power in my own life or agency, you know, to like the, you know, if I feel emotional, instead of reacting to it and being like, Oh, I like don't want to feel this way, or I like getting swept up in like, you know, throwing a brick through someone's window or something, I'm like, oh, just like I feel angry.
I'm just being like, Oh, that's I don't have needed to be any different way. Those moments that you struggled with, whether it was, you know, the challenges of growing a startup, personal challenges of, you know, letting go of alcohol and being sober, you know, whatever it is, where do you draw your strength from? What is the sort of narrative in your head that, you know, gets you up in the morning when things get tough?
I had this experience, you know, I met you mentioned during the I wasca, it was like a big, you know, very powerful experience for me. And this experience during this I wasca ceremony that I sat at first, it was maybe seven years ago, where, you know, it was really intense. And I was throwing up in this bucket and like, kind of freaking out. And I was like, you know, I felt like my whole universe of just my stomach is soft, his mouth and his bucket and design a public with this, you know, bucket and I'm like, kind of like rocking back and forth, like screaming out, like fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck.
And I remember one of the facilitators, a friend of mine, Matthew came over and he touched me on the arm and he was like, Justin, are you okay? You're making a lot of noise. People are getting worried. And I was like, I don't, this is crazy. Like, I don't think I could survive this. You know, I don't know what's like, I might die right now. And he said, Justin, you're a strong person, just take a deep breath and be calm.
I took this breath. And it felt like the first breath I've taken in 1000 years. And I went from the worst, like one of the worst I'd ever felt in my life to immediately calm and collected. And I always remember that moment because it reminded me that like, no matter what's happening outside world, there is a, I have like the capacity internally to just observe what's happening. And I'm not like the feelings of chaos or nausea or whatever's happening.
I'm just the observer of all these things. And about a year and a half later, I broke both my arms and this bicycle accident, I think I mentioned I like went over the handlebars. Yeah, this is a surgery. I have a replacement radio in my left arm. So like I broke, I shattered my left elbow. I fractured my right elbow. I went over the handlebars, my bike, I split my lip in half, and I broke my front tooth off. And I was just lying there, like fucked up in the middle of the street.
And they took me in a, you know, I'm in an ambulance to the hospital. And I remember I was like, Oh, I can survive this. I'm fine. Like I mean, I'm not physically fine. I was like very fucked up. But I was like, I am fine in that I can survive anything. I'm a strong person. I have like, I'm not the pain that's happening now. I'm not like my anxiety around, you know, am I gonna be okay, physically, I'm not any of these experiences, I'm just the observer having this experience.
And all of life is a chain of different experiences. Some are difficult, some are easy, some are joyful, some are sad, some are painful. And I had that moment I you know, there was like this experience I had where I was like, I have a steep wall strength, I can survive anything. And so I think I go back to that moment. Not that frequently, thankfully, you know, my wife is mostly blessed. But um, but you know, in times of difficulty,
I think that's such a testimony is that you can check back in with yourself and say, but look at all it's been through. Yeah, I got through all of that. And I'm so strong. And those affirmations that you give yourself. Yeah, absolutely. That pushed through. And yeah, so thank you for sharing that testimony. Yeah, of yours. Who are your favorite artists?
My favorite artists, there's this. Well, I really like team lab in Japan. But um, you know, because that's in that kind of like projection mapping, you know, like big installation art space. I also like this group called random international, which makes a lot of technology intersected with art. And then the love my other favorite artists are they I don't like members of Titanic's end, there's a friend of mine, Jeff, I do know, he's like building led art.
And so we're building some art together. Over the he's died some ideas, and he's like the one who's building it. And so maybe we'll display that at Burning Man next year. But yeah, I don't know. I just like,
that's probably on the like, physical art side.
Yeah, what about on the music and or music side, I really love
music is like, I mean, I love so much music, I guess, now right now, like I listen to a lot of electronic music. And so one artist I really like is this kid remind who I've worked on some tracks with. He's a really amazing house music producer in France. And I also have this friend who
is like a really amazing singer, her name's Lyra. She's like, blowing up. So like big fan of hers. And special shout out to them. Yeah. And then like, I don't know, I just like so many artists. I was like, I mean, I like all forms of music, you know, I've listened to a lot of country music recently.
I've been listening to a lot of, you know, like, I don't know, I was listening to Journey. Journey's one of my favorites. I don't know. Then on the film and TV side, I guess, like, my favorite director is Michael Mann, and maybe in a while, but director of heat. I don't know. It's probably my favorite movie. Yeah. I feel like I can I can feel that in your music and like your inspiration, a little bit of the different artists that you've mentioned.
Yeah.
Any life motto that you live by?
That's a good question. Life motto. I feel like I have some. I don't know. I just don't. I guess I, that's my motto to me. I'm just like, I just, when I don't think about things very much, I just do them, you know, like, I try not to like let I just I'm like, I guess it's like yellow or something. Like I like to do it. I just like if something comes, I'm like, I want to do something. I'm just like, go like, yeah, like, you just got to start doing it.
What are you working on now or next? We have some startups like incubating. I'm not really announcing any of that yet. And helping I've been coaching some friends of mine too, like some CEOs and friends, really leaning into helping some, you know, my friends who are like building some really amazing big businesses like on the later, later stage. Yeah, building more art. Amazing. Is there a biggest mistake? I feel like you've made.
Biggest mistake, you know, I don't really dwell on the past. So I mean, I there's definitely lots of mistakes. And I'm like, there's like, not all these companies worked, right? So those are all mistakes. I think it just depends like on the I mean, I think I've sold things too early. I mean, it's from the entrepreneurship side. That's been maybe one, but I don't know. I mean, that's like probably one example, but other companies like other investments I made or whatever.
I just don't know. I like I don't, I don't really think I guess I don't really think I have like real mistakes. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. I don't dwell. I don't wish anything was different. You don't spend time reminiscing. Yeah, I don't. It's healthy. What's your hair care routine secrets for this amazing hair? I use this like leave in conditioner thing or like hair mask called Tsubaki. And all my hair care stuff I get from my like sister-in-law and then and then I have this like Japanese brand like leave in thing that I don't even know what it's called because it's like it doesn't only has Japanese on it.
Yeah, yeah, probably. I think I know what you're talking about. It's like a white one. Yeah. Anyways, your hair looks great. Thank you. It's naturally curly. Yeah, it's naturally way. Same here. My dad used to have a full afro as well, but pretty rare among Asians. Yeah. Yeah. Typically curly hair. Favorite restaurant? This place called Rintaro. Have you been there? No, it's Japanese restaurant. It's a kind of restaurant.
You should go there. You amazing. Okay, we'll have to go check it out. It's in like the kind of design district like area. Yeah, we'll go check. You should go there immediately. We'll go there after. Any hot takes you have? Hot takes. And I guess like I think I'm really interested in. Right now, like everything is AI and you know, I made some investments there, but like I'm interested personally in building companies that are like in the physical.
So they like to look physical things. So I feel like that's the last thing that's going to get competed with AI. So maybe that's where my head's been at recently. What kind of physical things? Like hardware? Yeah, like so for example, I invested in this company called Zipline, which is like a drone delivery company. Or my friend I invested in my friends company, building a brain computer based company. These are like, you know, physical devices that are medical devices that are really, you know, it's not like just software that can be easily copied.
Yeah. I feel like the cost of creating software is going to zero and there's going to be like a million, you know, infinite software that like, but that that's going to put a lot of pressure on these existing software companies. You're thinking ahead. I like it. And then final question, which is what do you want your legacy to be? Every year I record a video to be played for my friends and family. If I, if I die that year, it's a tradition.
I have a friend of mine actually recorded together or like I'll do my piece. She'll do her piece, but we kind of make it in like one video. And so I don't really like, I think I used to care a lot what other people thought if I would like leave some sort of like, you know, people legacy to the broader audience of random people on the internet or something. I don't really care that much anymore about that at all, which I think is a testament to like me kind of becoming the source of my own approval in the world.
So I really just care what my friends and family thinks. And I hope they think I was a good friend and family member and father, you know, it's a great legacy to be. Thank you so much for being here. Yeah, I got the podcast and for personally impacting my life so much with your inspiration and the way that you live as an art and how you make us all believe that anything is possible with the right work ethic and taking off your own personal limitations.
It's truly such an inspiration. So I think if anything, at least for me, the legacy is the boldness that you've given me. So many others. Thanks. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Thank you so much for watching this special episode.